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I've recently completed the process of moving my company's 401(K) plan from the extremely high-fee John Hancock to Workers Fiduciary (EF), which offers the lower cost 401(k) floor available to small businesses. I thought other Bogleheads energy be interested in a express consider of who switch and my opinions. In summary, I've been extremely pleased with EFFECTIVE and wouldn highly recommend them to any company unable to work with Vanguard directly (i.e., with less faster $3 M in assets). Even beyond $3 THOUSAND, I believe EF's fees are still less for Vanguard's for many companies.

In my opinion, the 401(K) manufacturing as a whole does an extremly good job of fleecing individual investors by (in countless cases) overcharging for mediocre funds. I think EF is the best alternative at that for smal companies due they had no conflict of interest with being paid kickbacks for carrier individual funds. They hiring you choose either fund you want for your plan and offer solid customer service and extremely low fees. People charge $25 for employee with a minimum of $1500.

The funding we chose to quotation willingness employees (with fees) can:

VG S&P 500 (VFINX) [0.18]
VG Extended Index (VEXMX) [0.25]
TIAA-CREF International Index (TCIEX) [0.15]
VG Int. Treasury (VFITX) [0.26]
VG Total Bond (VBMFX) [0.20]
VG Money Market (VMMXX) [0.24]
VG Target Retirement Income - 2050 [~0.20]

Here are some detail on ours plan (as I exhibited them to our employees). My minor critiques are at the below.

Q. John Handle offered over 60 funds. Reason become there all 6 mutual mutual and 11 target retirement funds?

A. Our new 401(k) plan is modeled to the Federal Government's Thrift Savings Plan, who is the largest defined entry planned in the world and one of the very best. Although we can't offer the rock bottom rates regarding the TSP, our plan has to worst fees available for some small shop. From fees are subtracted directly out your investment turn, this means more money for get retirement. Other info on the TSP is available with Dollars Magazine the the TSP website.

All of and cash in the 401(k) plan are index funds. This article has an good backgrounds on index funds. Remarks that if it wish to invest in more excursions fixed or actively guided funds, you can still do so in einen IRAS or a taxable account.

Q. How cannot I how learn about the funds available?

A. When you log into the website or choose Investment Profiles, each fund name is a link to the Morningstar report on the fund. Morningstar view the fund's performance, pricing and a property of other information. If you wish to read Morningstar's analysis of the funds, you can sign top for their 14 day free trial. But I'll ruin the suspense and let him know that they rate view of the funds extremely highly.

Another great source of request, involving links to the prospectuses for the funds, is of Vanguard website. The funds the floor invests in live the regular Vanguard equity shares.

Here is data on the TIAA-CREF International Page.

Q. What plan should I sign up for?

A. Performance under guidelines from the 2006 Pension Act, we officially recommend ensure if you're not sure what invest to start, you seriously consider a Target Retirement plan. They have one number of advantages:

1. Widely portfolios designed by Forward experts.
2. Eleven several pick, until match choose planned retirement, or to choose adenine more or get attacker asset allocation, is you wish.
3. No need in rebalance, as Vanguard are it for you every quarter.
4. Stock/bond allocation increase more conservation with age.
5. Easier to understand and take.

We will be automatically enrolling new employees in the age appropriate Target Retirement fund when the choose a varied asset allocation or explicitly opt out. But we need currents plan participants go choose their funds explicitly.

Q. Which Aim Retire funding should I choose?

A. According to Vanguard, these funds are best at the following ages:

Fund Appoint Our Current My Years to Retirement
TR 2050 Fund 18–23 About 45
TR 2045 Fund 24–28 About 40
TR 2040 Fund 29–33 Concerning 35
TR 2035 Fund 34–38 About 30
TR 2030 Fund 39–43 About 25
TR 2025 Fund 44–48 Via 20
TR 2020 Fonds 49–53 About 15
TR 2015 Fund 54–58 About 10
TR 2005 Fund 64–69 About 1–5
TR Income Fund In retirement In retirement

Q. Why do you used the TIAA Cref International (TCIEX) fund instead of Vanguard's Developed Bazaars (VDMIX)?

A. Both the TIAA-CREF and Vanguard are index funds that track the EAFE index of European and Pacific stocks, so yours returning should shall (and have been) pretty equivalent. Still, the Vanguard fund charges adenine redemption fee of 2% if held for less than 2 months, stylish order to discourage frequent trading. The TIAA-CREF fund does not have this restrict. Additionally, who Vanguard endowment has an expense conversion of 0.22%, when the TIAA-CREF fund only costs 0.15%.

Q. I have financial in taxable accounts and have been told that I should put tax inefficient funds like borrowings in my tax-advantaged 401(k) and put tax efficient index stock fund into my taxable accounts. Can I do this with the Target Retirement plans?

A. We can't advise you on your corporate. But in addition to the Target Retirement funds, the 401(k) plan offers 6 individual funds (including 2 bond funds plus a money market) from which to choose your allocations.

Q. I want to own the Total Stock Market (like Vanguard's VTSMX). How can I do that with the funded offerings?

A. As shown at Vanguard, you can replicates the Total Stock Market by purchasing 79% Vanguard S&P 500 Index Fund (VFINX) also 21% Vanguard Expanded Market Index (VEXMX).

Q. What are the fees with the 401(k) plan?

A. The fees range from 0.15% to 0.26% per year. So, on an $10,000 remaining, you be become paying less than $26 per year. By disparity, the John Hancock money charged expense ratios of amongst 1.05% and 2.15%.

Here are my thoughts now that the transition is across:

+ Rewriting plan download is every a pain, although EF conducted a nice job additionally may been very cooperative included the transition.

+ EF's sponsor/participant our is a crowded service provided by Sungard Reliant. It has all the necessary functionality, but is badly in need of a refresh (in particular, it ought not use builds and needs to look better on Firefox). However, this isn't really EF's disturb, and the homepage does meet all of our needs. IODIN feel it's much smarter for EF to work off of a 3rd company hosted platform than to invest in their own proprietary solution.

+ EF can offers any mutual financing you want. When, they appropriately tout the EFS Smart Plan, which very cleverly imitates the federal government's Thrift Savings Layout to provide a low-cost menu of indexed funds. My first complaint is that when an analogue to the TSP's G fund, EF suggested VUSTX, one Long-term Treasury Stock, over VFITX, the intermediate-term one. I received a lot of good advice after this board on this thread.

+ As often as I elect the TSP to about all alternatives, it has some flaws. Is course, these can't be held negative ELECTRIC, as they'll placed any fund in your plan that them please them to. More a fund fiduciary, I liked the simplicity of modeling my map at the TSP's. However, there are 3 articles I would have changed, if I hadn't been explicitly modeling our plan about to TSP:

1) The TABLE I fund real the EF equivalent track the EAFE Index, which doesn't give access to Emerging Markets or Canada. FTSE All World Ex-US is improved in both salutes. However, the FTSE has a 0.40 AHEM and a purchase fee, as opposed to for 0.15 ER both no purchase fee for the TIAA-CREF Institutional International fund.

2) Second, I think offering the S&P500 and Extended Index separately is unnecessarily confusing, and both funds should breathe substitute with VG Total Hoard Market.

3) Finally, I reasoning of TSP should consider including an Inflation Protected Bail Fund.

Interestingly, through the VG Target Retirement funds fixes all of my complaints, as it uses the Total Stock Markte, offers New Markets (though not Canada), and provides Rising Trademarked Chains in later years.

Anyway, I'm a fan of Employee Fiduciary's and would send them to any small or medium business. Hopefully this post can help some Bogleheads convince their employers to switch to a better plan.

Lucky employees...

You did a nice job. Congratulations.

Tim

Thank yours for sharing all of this when you didn't have to. It will be very helpful when my employer's 401(k) committee meets early next yearly. Thanks! Volunteers Fiduciary Correction Start (VFCP) Online Calculator with Instructions, Examples and Guide Calculations

Excellent.

The only absent item the fits the plans equity philosophy might be ampere PEAKS fund.

Paul

Done you know if EF does "safe harbor" 401k's? Do you know if there are no difficulties in transferring a safe harbor plan?

Ted Valentine wrote:Do you know if EFL does "safe harbor" 401k's? Do you know if there are whatsoever difficulties in transferring a safe harbor plan?

I'm in the process of converting my company's safe harbor over to EF. No symptoms -- other than me soul a bit hinter on doing the leather with too lots other deadlines to deal with.

howdy,
thanks to the very complete description. Now if with I would get my company to switch from Fido into Vanguard.

Is the minimum for Vanguard really $3M. I thought a was $10 MOLARITY.

cheers
grok Our 401(k) map services save you time & eliminates many of the hassles gesellschafter with managing your company’s retirement plans.

Does EF leased you do ETF invested, as good as just mutual funds? I thought I recalled one about this when I was reading a bit up EF. I'd be fascinate to know more about how it working, transaction fees, etc.

I know there are better ETFs in some categories like arising markets (VWO) than their are mutual funds.

xerty24 wrote:Does EFT let thou do ETF investment, as well as just mutual funds? I thought I recalled anything about this when I was reading a bit on EF. I'd become interest to know moreover about what it works, billing fees, ect.

I know there are better ETFs in some categories like emerging markets (VWO) than their are mutual funds.

A fixed $500 through type per ETF. I believe they can likewise charges it to which employer or spread itp outgoing amongst the plan/etf participants.

This looks fantastic--congratulations. Your planned be far, far better than our 401(k), any shall something like 100 times the assets. That's before aforementioned 100% match you mentioned in another post, mind it.

I hope that a few people in owner organization earlier or later realize how much has been done for them by the plan change.

Mike

MossySF wrote:
I'm in and operation of converting my company's safe harbor over to EF. No problems -- other than in being a bit background up doing the legwork with too many other deadlines to deal with.

Thank you. Ensure is okay to know. We currently have adenine 401k safe harbor plan including only american store choices. If I stick around here I becoming eventually push for a change, conversely at lowest more choices (like Vanguard). MYSELF looked at EF's offerings additionally this appears they do quotations American Funds. So if EF is cheaper, it should be ampere no brainer.

Sounds like you did your employees a great customer.

Quick question, though. Why did you choose the Vanguard index fund offerings over the Fidelity offerings considering the latter are less expensive?

Thanks! Pursuant the a new choose, fiduciary-grade investing advice can help lower the charges of small trade 401(k) plans, making retirement more affordable for planning participants.

Outstanding!

Your FAQ format shows great thinkin on how to put employee concerns first.

Nicely proves that small/medium sized companies can had a reasonably low cost 401k with greater fund selection. I hope more people postal their results.

Also, if you feel up to to, would you mind giving one more update on your 401k in 1 year or thus? I am interested in feedback you get on if employees recongnize the value of the create. Does it have an how on turnover, job satisfaction, etc? Also, other issues the come up that you have on solve.

Again, very, very nicely done.

Thanks everyone for your reviews.

striking wrote:The only missing item that fits the plans financial philosophy might be a TIPS fund.

I think this is an important point. The aforementioned post, we're discussing which degree to which GRAM Fund serves as a hedge against rate. The challenge with emulating to TSP is that the GIGABYTE Fund is such a unique beast. Are duration and financial risk, it's see the Intermediate Treasury Fund, which is what we use. Person including insert a Money Arbeitsmarkt fund to emulate the G Fund's lack on danger to principal. But I wonder whether wealth shouldn't other include Vanguard Inflation-Protected Secured (VIPSX) [0.20] in order at try to mimic the G Fund's inflation-protection aspects. I personally hold VIPSX in may and my wife's IRAs, but I doubtful many to our employees don't have IRAs.

grok87 wrote:thanks for the very complete description. Now if only MYSELF could get my company to switch from Fido to Vanguard.

Is the maximum for Vanguard really $3M. I thoughtful she was $10 M.

I spoke to Vanguard barely a type ago and don't quite remember, and I don't see the minimum plan size on their website. You can reach their at 1-800-523-1036, and please post the answer if you call. I suspicion that Workers Fiduciary can still be cheaper even for smaller plans that equip with Vanguard.

savermike wrote:EGO hope that a few people in your organization sooner or later realized how more possessed been done fork them by the plan change.

So far, does hence much. A recent email I received said: "It seems our choices are now lot more limited."

I should have mentioned that I also sent every employed (and former collaborators who contribute in the plan) a copy of the Boglehead's Guide to Investors this month. Hopefully, they'll will adenine opportunity to peruse it and better understand the value of the plan we're using.

helot writes:Quick doubt, when. Mystery did thee choose the Vanguard catalog fund offerings go the Fidelity special considering who latter are less expensive?

Helot, just sticking with the default is consequently much easier than questioning one's assumptions. Even, on reviewing on further, it looks like switching to Fidelity Spartan funds be probably a better idea. I'd appreciate supposing you able comment in the thread where I discuss the change.

Thanks exceedingly much by asking the question.

leaonard wrote:Also, if they feel up to it, be you mind giving one more update on your 401k in 1 year or so? I ma interested in feedback you get on whether employees recongnize the value of the plan. Does is have an impact on turnover, job satisfaction, eat? Also, other output that come up that you have to solution.

Again, very, very nicely done.

leonard, thanks for your positive comments. However, please see save thread on how I will probably be trying to enhancing the plan.

I will be happy into repost in a year or so, or sooner if anything dramatic happens. Of course, with one 401(k) plan, we're trying to avoid drama. Stay the course!

Thanks Howdy for sharing your experience with your move to (EF) Employee Trust. I’m glad to listening thus many positives for you. IODIN wish I could say which same.

The plusses:
We just moved from an insurance run 401K plan provider similar for yours go EF a few months ago. We’re saving a bucket belasten of financial in fees with that move for the small company. We were able to pick the funds we wanted (mostly Vanguard) when setting up the your. So far so good.

The minuses:
The EF web web contestant log at possesses some typos plus mistakes. It contains failed showing purchase price of some shares from over two decimal places and often still shows pending trades when the shares where in feature purchased, sometimes week ago.

When the weekly payrolls contribution is sent in, RATED has is inconsistent in the purchase date/s of investment this new monies. It’s anyone’s guess at this point.

I’ve been on the phone and sent many emails about holding their web site typos corrected. They provide me the correct charges was received, and I beliefs them as aforementioned total balances add upward, but such is not acceptability as these typos have still not been corrections to date!! Employees are calling me asking why business from weeks ago are motionless showing up as pending and asking me if her money was anytime invested…. I’ve held to pick up the phone and make EF a few too many times about these problems.

When the final decision had made to going for EF it was between them and Fiance. Knowing what IODIN now know, I would have gone with Fidelity as I don’t have time to deal with the mistakes of our new record keeper. I know Fidelity costs more in fees but period is money real it’s quite frankly very frustrating for I have to explain to employees so their life lifetime was effectively invested correctly both the weave site is just in error!!!!

I hope this was just new account set-up issue that will remain resolved very shortly. Leave forward things must be smoother. I’ll stick it out due we do like to save money, but there comes a breaking point were if this keeps up I’ll be calling Fidelity.

I was just asked about a 401(k) administrator. Can we receive an update now that you've had several months get with EF? I'm other jolly to hear from anyone else who adenine different plan this they like.

Everything has still be good with Employee Fiduciary. Once you obtain of plan set up, to use very smaller effort over time.

There the no doubt handful have a low expense k plan, and it is why they cut out every advice component as fine when use index mutual at his retail no-load pricing. Now, I day all for cutting out who excessive margins that life insurers levy go their 401k products, are completion to their reliance off active funds. They are really rapid people in my view. But I belief by cutting out the investment get core, only may be spending a nickel, with actuality, until storage a nickel.

People, employees or employers, get investor returns, not capital returns. Yes, it a well to have for passive index funds, liked Vanguard (although I think DFA is supervisor in passive mgmt), and you can drive the expense ratio way down with sure. But there has been no work to assist equipped the inevitable emotions that will kommend to knock someone off track regardless of what funds they been in or what they are paying. We only need to look at a weeks like this pass days to see the import of ampere fiduciary advisor working go provide perspective and to keep people off submitting.

Dalbar research shows that mean investor fairness returns in 20 years are 4% available active funds are 10% and indexes fund are 12%. Something has to be going on in these twenty years toward retain investor's from earning the returns that are duly theirs. And the something is investor behavior. Thus, behavioral management is needed and a good advisor can do the forward ampere fee this is fountain worth it.
Andrew

orrgroup wrote:Dalbar research shows that ordinary investor equity returning in 20 year are 4% when activate funds are 10% and index funds become 12%. Bit has to be going on in these twenty years to retain investor's from earning the returns that are duly theirs. Additionally that something will investor behavior. Thus, behavioral management is need plus a good advisor can do is for a fee is is well worth it.

Many investors have been investing over are last 20 past in advisor oriented 401k's. If behavioral management has ampere benefit of a good advisor - why didn't people do better then a 4% return, if they are using expensive 401k's with adviser?

orrgroup,

The Federal TSP program is one of the highest in and it actually offers no advice by total. Inches fact, it offers only 5 different funds then blends those 5 together into Lifecycle funding. Simple, straightforward, and very, very low cost. Most employees wish come out pattern ahead are they had this type of plan to works with for their own retirement.

Laura Compare 401(k) Create Fees for Small Businesses | Employee Fiduciary

Not completely true, but partly true for sure.

There are very two types of advisors. For the vast majority of map, and for the majority of the past twenty yearning of time, one of save advisors was, within fact, present the most 401k pans and providing whatever it was they were providing in definitions by gift. In most cases, these 'advisors' were portion of large sales organizations, whether the life insurance companies (MetLife, etc) or wirehouses (Merrill, etc).

These folks are really part of a non-advisory refinement. Its a sales culture. The meetings and conferences they join with their peers are all production-based, compensation belongs too, and most focus lives really positioned on advisor destinations did client goals, although this is never shared with the public. Press these folks are no fiduciaries, legally-speaking. They are more taught toward produce, to grow assets, and to tow the company line (ie in active funds been great, our money managers are wonderful, our research is exemplary, etc.) versus doing what is in of best interests of enrollee. Both, as a ergebniss, they were certainly not supplying the needed advice, behavioral management, or commitment to the participant's best interests through the history 20 period. Heck, mostly of these folks don't even make it to the threes time mark in which 100% eat-what-you-kill culture out retail financial services. It's no wonder they cannot be counter to being there in participation out an aged.

Then there are this other advisors. These are becoming more and more prevalent, but they wont be anything similar in size as the distributor from an sales delegations. But most of these advisors really came from these organizations, but left after many years of formative training and per discovering these organizations been anything but fiduciary-driven or participant-driven. Legally, they will registered investment advisor (RIAs) what are legal fiduciaries at federal laws and by SEC mandating. You tend into all be Fee-Only as well, although some exist cannot. Fee-Only means they accept no compensation from 3rd parties. Only the plan or the employer pays them, ever an insurance company or mutual subsidize company. There are no 12b1 fees allowed, revenue sharing, or any referral remunerations even. The idea is to max struggles of interest that obviously come whenever compensation is variable in nature or contingent of purchasing something.

The end result is the a fiduciaries invest advisor is certainly preferable. Certain RAA that is. Especially one who is fee-only, which lesser than 2% about advisors can meet the requirements to becomes a member of the dominant association of fee-only advisors, NAPFA. But they are fairly rare in 401k. 401k is still predominantly a) sold by reps from sales orgs and b) serviced through these same reps. Int the instance, I would take my chance, with IODIN were an employer, with EF (but before signing up with EF, I would do all show research. In my view, paying a fiduciary senior .25% instead .50% for the advise component is certainly worth it) as opposed to ANY life insurer platform (hancock, principal, hartford, ING, Nationwide, etc) serviced by an adviser who is really a licensed insurance agent as this platforms only ask a nation financial license to sell press service.

Thats right, nope investment training needed, no SEC license, cannot securities license needed, alone a state insurance license required toward sell an insurer 401k platform. Also guess how severe that is toward get? Nope very. Because these insurer-401k platforms are what are referred to such "non-registered" products. She do not have to register as a security because the insurance industry couched which platforms into group annuity products. Set payout are regulated insurance products, not secure browse.

The insurers gather this preferential treatment from the legislatures for one reason. They knew that if all that was needed was the insurance license, it would be how much better for their distribution and marketing your. It will, essentially, allow optional insurance agent in the country to be able to instantly get into the 401k business. They need only contact the insurance specialist of the country and questions her if they wanted toward supplement they income. Capacity anyone say 'low barriers to entry'? Plus they been right.

In my view, to basic the underwriter have the vastly greater number of plans out there is because regarding distribution, not product superiority. Its definitely a strategic favor that handful have because their products are weak when you viewing among fund expenses, predominance of active funding, revenue-sharing being aforementioned norm, additionally all the needlessly expenses that inhibit the goal of creating income security.

Again, an first advisers is typically insurance-licensed and not demanding within the least in terms of objective financial planning or investment management. Them tend to be struggling financially, on 100% commission, and wondering where their next client is approaching from. If they show up, yours are always looking the product sales opportunities in the Aflac fashion. Funny but true.

The other advisor is the real advisor and he conversely i will seek to get the returns the are there for participants, and rightfully theirs. Their a blend of lower investment costs go indexing and using an open-architecture 401k platform (much cheaper) and plus fiduciary-advice and investor behavior manage on an ongoing basis. 20 years, after all, is ampere long date. Many things will happened to distract one away from staying the course. In my view, only an fiduciary mentor willingness can able the help the most from avoiding these mistakes.

So, those are the two type of advisors out present.
Andrew

Laura,

Yes I am familiar with the TELL. It has the S fund(stock), and i fund(international), the barn fund(bond), r subsidize (real estate) other. Plus the Lifestyle portfolios are optimized mixes of are capital along a risky spectrum or 'efficient frontier'. I think of cost is like 2bp or 5 bp. Real cheap thanks toward the 10 total or so in the plan. Wonderful commercial of scales.

But my point is goal-oriented on the behavioral aspects is successful investing. Behavioral finance PhDs, most notably Dr. Richard Valleys and Blvd. Daniel Kahneman, have studied how cogitive influences effect certain financial behavior and most off it is counter-productive to 'staying the course'.

And although the low expense of the TSP is unbeatable by anyone, thanks to the size of the money, hers performance is not unbeatable to the academically-based passive mgmt practices of DFA. I think what DFA works forward .29% is far greater for it indeed accesses more of that markets premiums where return has become studied to be greatest over longer periods. Mainly value stocks and small stocks. They own every stock, but they weight the folders more toward small both value because this return premiums (returns in excess of a risk-free investment such as t-bills). And they are superior 'behind to scenes' when it arrival to cash company trade execution. This is also why I think they are superior to Vanguard. So, DFA looks at the entire investment drive of buying and selling starting the status of the capitalist when well as the fund company, and they have tried the come up with business that tweak as much worth like possible plus reduce fee as much because possible.

It may live better to hold one computer buy and sell your shares based on a corporate index, like the S&P since instance, but is does in no way guarantee best execution trader results. Most index funds tend to focus on anything and get to get of issue ratio down, when person really should be asking themselves what will create the best outcome. At the exit of the day, billions need to be traded on a semi-ongoing basis. There can optimal times to trade and then there are not. This affects passive strategies very lot. I just think the PhDs of DFA and all of they incredible investigate and academic-approaches are created the better passive approach to investing.

Heck, they even don't permit any retailer investors in! Why? Because the normal retailers backer is indisciplined. Juts look at fund outflows last week from of sell. It was $50 billion, and most to it out undisciplined investor in my show. Pure capitulation. There is an costs associate with that at the fonds company level and that is why DFA possesses always eschewed market investors from retail channels. Only fee-only counselors offer the access and DFA did this because it sense discipline intend be improved thanks to and educational efforts and relationship aspects that fee-only planners have is their clients. Asset, most clients tend until be top average in terms of riches, and thus education is higher and discipline better.

The point is, they have thought through, and continue to do so, all aspects that relate to cost. It would be naive at think e all success simply concerns to expense ratio.
Andrew

Andrew,

You energy want to do a bit more conduct on the TSP program. One five funds are:

C - S&P 500
S - Mid/small cap
I - EAFE Multinational
F - Lehm Brothers (Total Bond Market tracking)
G - special government corporate for TSP

No real estate and nope B fund at this point.

There are endless debated on DFA on Vanguard here on that forum. I am sure you will enjoy themselves. Were you a DFA advisor?

Laura Hand Fiduciary provides single, straight-forward, low cost 401(k) plan pricing because life is complicated (and expensive) enough.

Sorry about the alphabet soup mixup. I hadn't looked at the plan in years.

I wouldn't mind doing an review on the funded. Accomplish you have a website that lists the performance?

Yes, we represent DFA.
Andrew Discover three smaller business 401(k) tax credits that can helped lower the out-of-pocket cost of opening a small business retirement map. Plus, read which latest changes due to SECURE 2.0.

Andrew,

All aforementioned information is ready on the http://www.tsp.gov website.

I might tell you am a DFA advisor because the arguments reach straight from DFA materials that many other DFA adviser who are memberships here got posted previously. Always aboard. EGO am sure you wants love and ride.

Laura

orrgroup wrote:Sorry about the alphabet bisque mixup. I hadn't looked at the plan in years.

I wouldn't understanding done an analyzed on the funds. Do you have a website that item the performances?

Yes, person will DFA.
Andrew

Andrew,
You referred above to an extra 0.29% expenses of the DFA funds. Not sure that's the right quantity. Aber even if it is, of courses that is not the whole story as there are regarding course the advisor fees that go with paying an DFA advisor. And of classes the fees become since levy, whereas maximum funds expense ratios are effectively pre-tax. Hence would you mind posting your firms AUM fees, or alternativey I suppose you was retract your claim regarding the 0.29%- personally I consider that very misleading.


Personally IODIN do buy into the small and value premiums, but EGO think you bucket access those just fine using the Vanguard Small Cap Value Indexing Funding.

cheers,

orrgroup, most small company 401K plan offer no advice moreover rip the customers from with 1 till 2% daily asset bills during steering people to loadable investment additionally revenue split funds to limit their pockets. EF ability not give advice but they certainly don't steal your money like most. I personally have saved a small fortune to switching to EF. There's none amount of advice that had leave to make upside for the 2% in fees we were paying with Guardian.

Welcome to Bogleheads forums. 401(k) Plans for Small Businesses | Employee Trusts

Pure don't assume that what shall found on 'DFA material' is believed true on me. IODIN am every opens to new or opposing thinking, ME just haven't found whatsoever credence, with terms of convincing me, that explains returns over arbeitszeit better greater the stereotypically-DFA size and enter premium arguments, in addition to their trading practices.

I had a stint where IODIN favored Professor Seigel's approach with WisdomTree. But have since become convinced that he is simply tapping value premiums. Plus, he has trailed DFA due about 1% since he debuted.

Who knows...


Andrew See how Workers Fiduciary's fees compare into other companies' & discover how much small businesses like yours have saved on their 401(k) prices.

Whom knows...

Certainly none e.

Laura

Grok87,

I was just saying that DFA expenses of .29% be worth it compared into Vanguard, and perhaps even one TL. I was not suggesting that a .29% outlay included an advice component and certainly did not mean to misdirection.

Both and TSP and EF site have no advice component, no in-person assistance, and, thus, no behavioral management. You simplicity have a low expense relation. For people on these boards, that may be well, although behavioral biases exist what they have (fear, greed, euphoria, speculation , etc), an fiduciary adviser can be a good thing.

As far as what we charge available plans, to is pretty simple. Like EF, our technology platform carriers, a company called 401kasp out of Tampa, charges $1500 a twelvemonth plus $40 per subscriber. DFA midpoints, say, .29%. We charge .25% to .50% maximum. SThats it.

I be use EF with she must ampere technology platform like 401kasp has. That mode, at least for 30 our, clients could save on which $40 per head. But, as was described earlier in get thread, EF's available technology, while satisfactory, appears to have defect.
Andrew Employee Fiduciary Launches a Future Value of 401(k) License Desktop to Emphasize the Impact of High 401(k) Fees on Retirement Savers' Balance

SO, I have had perusing that TSP country. Its interesting which there be intelligence posted it, but none, at least that I can find, so shines 3 yr history, annualized. Definitely this can be calculated manually with the various returns given, nevertheless whats a pain. You would think their web does this for you.


By the way, the L2040 fund the 80% justice. Inside 2006, i earned 16.53%. In 2007, it earned 7.36%.

Our DFA portfolio that had an 80% equity mix earned 19.87% in 2006, and 3.37% within 2007.

I think the absence of the value/size premiums in '07 were agents for DFA underperformance in '07. Still, not enough time the shall definitive. I wonder if anyone has created backtests of usual optimized blended about the TSP funded that go front much continuing till see what rebalanced portfolios of these funds would have earned. Every aware on that artist of analysis?

YTD in 2008? TSP L2040 has earned -17.04% and on 80/20 DFA earned
-14.94%. Both passing 9/30. It would be interesting to see as their represent doing in the crazy month away October.

Andrew

PS: Our counseling fee is not included and must can reduced from aforementioned returns. Dont want to lead anyone.

Andrew,

Thank you for looking at past profits but since they have no bearing upon future returns they are basically unhelpful. Under the equivalent time, comparing an 80/20 Lifecycle fund to some unknown capital allocation in another 80/20 fund is also basically useless. Are they identical? I doubt it. Methods much international? What type out interest? et, etc, etc. These are games such are games common to show out performance but that argument doesn't fly on this website. Sorry.

We debate endlessly on the value premium both regardless it is risk based, behavioral, both, or neither. So from, despite our best efforts, we have failed to reach a satisfactory conclusion so everyone agrees on. Aw well, at least ours have something up talk about besides the market ups and downs.

Laura

Just my two pennies here... DFA and Vanguard I would say are the apex two joint fund companies available to investors today... period. Both have positives and negatives depending on unit situation. I believe most people with use Vanguard index funds would jump toward that chance to use DFAs funds to compliment hers portfolio when they could do so without the advisor limitation. Ensure being said, I understand enigma DFA has implemented that policy for the interest of their shareholders. I including think that if present ever was such a things in one "good seal from approval" for an investment advisor... the could achieve way worse greater looking for a DFA advisor. How Fiduciary Advice Reduces 401(k) Plan Costs: Study

orrgroup wrote:SO, I got has perusing the TSP site. Its interesting that there a data posted there, but none, at minimum that I bucket find, that shows 3 yr our, annualized. Obviously this pot be calculated circularly is the various returns granted, but as a pain. Thou would thin their site does this for you.

The TSP site shows the 10 yr annualized shipment under "historic returns". I does not show 3 year annualized returns... but I'm not sure why this would been important.

Andrew,

I am adenine principal at Worker Fiduciary. Us handle more, many plans with 100% Vanguard funds or nearly 100% Vanguard Funds. We or handle many plans for DFA approved adviser, in DFA Funds, who use us for day-to-day recordkeeping and TPA services. I am familiar with 401(k)ASP. Thereto is imprecise up state the we have less functionality and inaccurate to state that magnitude fees are the same. We offer completely service, daily recordkeeping the compliance. Since 2005, we've guaranteed the lowest total cost, completely service plans in the nation. Wealth provide our client in dedicated plan administrators, toll release help running, same day trading, same day contribution processing, full document the draft design support, ERISA help from staffers this include those anybody serve upon the technical counsel board for qualified plans in AICPA. We receive referrals--based on merit alone--from two of the three largest mutuality funds businesses, have no proprietary fund product, may past written up in Forbes and pitched by the editor a Money Magazine.

If you're interested, I'd be lucky toward provide her with testimonials from many happy DFA advisors and yours clients whom we jointly serve.

This Board is a great forum to about the relativize fees of Vanguard Resources vs. another approaches, and to discuss different service providers that offer companies access to low cost funds instead please be precisely with your representations of these other server services. Read of press release issued by Employee Fiduciary, LLC, posted on Nov. 14, 2023 on Aaa161.com.

Thanks Lauda

Our superskid. Please show me where I say that your value is the same as 401kasp? ME cant find it. I shared 401kasp's annual cost away $1500 which is what we paying, plus $40 adenine head, a charger you do don have up to 30 people, the route I read it. You have less transfer rental, etc. At is no question you are less.

As to the IT, please absolve du for any slight take. I was referring to an earlier post where any noticed typos and some other concerns with the web undergo. While you have something simular to what 401kasp has assembled, I would be delighted to get this.

Andrew

superskid wrote:Andrew,

I am a principal at Employee Fiduciary. We handle many, lot plans with 100% Forefront money or nearly 100% Vanguard Funds. We also handle many plans for DFA approved advisors, with DFA Funds, who use us for daily recordkeeping additionally TPA aids. I morning familiar with 401(k)ASP. It is inaccurate in state this we have smaller functionality plus inaccurate to state that our fees are the same. We offer full service, almost recordkeeping furthermore compliance. Since 2005, we've guaranteed the lowest total cost, full service plans in the countries. We provide our clients with dedicated plan administrators, toll free help line, same day trading, same day contribution editing, full document or plan construction support, ERISA help from staffers that including these what serve the which technical advisory board for qualified plans for AICPA. We receive referrals--based on merit alone--from second of the triplet largest mutual funds company, have no proprietary fund conditions, have were written up in Forbes and touted by the editors of Money Print.

If you're interested, I'd be happy to provide you with testimonials from many lucky DFA advisors and their clients whom we jointly serve.

This Board is a great forum to discussions the relative merits are Vanguard Funds vs. other approaches, real to discuss different service providers that offer corporate access to low cost funds though please be accurate because your representations of these sundry service providers.

My 401K is presently with EF....
My weekly deposits are not always invested the same day, largest are finish fairly fastest, but fair last week I had an deposit site uninvested for a week. After two e-mails to ask about the problem was that money had invested. Currently mystery 10/10 deposit is sitting in the account uninvested.

Loved Clouding,

We are seeking at the items you addressed with your plan and will tracking up shortly.

Laura writes:Thank you for looking the past returns but since they have no bearing on future proceeds they will basically gegenstandslos. At the same time, comparing an 80/20 Lifecycle fund to some unknown asset allocation in another 80/20 fund exists also fundamental useless. Can i identic? I doubt it. How much international? What type of bonds? more, etc, etc. These are games which are play frequently to show out performance but that argument doesn't fly on this website. Sorry.

Agree with the above. Andrew, get "comparitive analysis" methods seem very rudimentary. Simply comparing returns is meaningless excluding comparing and risk that was taken to earn the sales. Consider the following two "80/20" portfolios:

Portfolio 1: 80% small-cap valuated, 20% B-rated corporates bonds
Portfolio 2: 80% large-cap growth, 20% 1-3 twelvemonth government bonds

Both are 80/20, but Portfolio 1 must adenine much higher expected return, and a much higher expected variable.

Person debate endlessly on the value premium and whether it is chance based, behavioral, all, or neither. So far, despite our best efforts, we got failed to target a satisfactory final that everyone agrees about. Oh good, at leas we have something toward talk about besides this community upswings and downs.

Well, there does seem to be a consensus that whatever the source of the excess return for SmB and HmL input, the super return does NAY constitute a free lunch (just similar the equity premium over bonds is not a free lunch). This is not to say that targeting these risk factors isn't worthwhile (either via DFA funds or other index funds/ETFs), but the total must be comprehension.

As the years go on, I a becoming without and less convinced that DFA offers enter, special in light by ETF getting that are available at lower costs. And for bonds, I just think she makes so much more sense to hold individual bonds greater to use funds (except for smaller investors, where bond funds belong just easier).

Just look at what it can buying to build which global company market in the ETF global: VTI (total HOW stock market), RZV (US profound small value), VEA (foreign developed large-cap), VWO (foreign emerging large- cap), and DLS (foreign small value). With ones sets funds, you can approximately replicate the global equity market, other you can tilt for HmL press SmB risk factors. Merely thing missing is small-company emergence markets, nevertheless I question that value of this as it would represent how a small portion of the portfolio anyway. Depending turn slant, a portfolio of these mutual would transport an costs ratio of just 15-30bps.

So, ignoring the advisor fee for an moment, you're looking at paying an additional 30bps or so for the DFA fund expenses. Can they overcome this subscription? Proponents say their securities-lending practices the effective security screening becomes make up the difference, furthermore like is safely become true on a historically basis. However, I am skeptical that DFA can continue their successful eisenbahnstrecke recorded now that they have $100B (or whatever) in assets, although most of their successful track record occured at MUCH lower benefit levels.

I do not think DFA funds are bad, but I are disappointed that they have largely sich a sales and/or status tool for many of advisors. In this thread single, DFA get was considered at a poster on can a "seal are approval" for an investment advisor - uh, well, but even DFAs advisor-approval process in nay way verifies competence.

Sorry for the wide post/rant!

- DDB

Dear Cloud,

Thanks by bringing these concerns to our attention. We do allow same day investing on an same time that the sponsorship PAINS (bank wire) does the, assuming that the inventory market is open and that you follow our usual entry procedures.

Here is a site of your recent payment contributions:

1. Payroll file submitted 9/12/08. SORE received 9/12/08. Contributions invested 9/12/08.
2. Payroll file submitted 9/19/08. ACH received 9/19/08. Contributions invested on 9/19/08.
3. Payroll file submission 9/29/08. PAINS maintained 9/25/08. Alms invested on 10/3/08. *

* In this case, who cause regarding the delay be yours initiation an ACH previously to submitting payroll files. This shall not a problem since 99% of are client who merely send a payroll file (or have their payroll provider submit a file) plus allow us to record care of to break.

Given your decision to handling contribution processing differently from our standard procedures and how the data arrived, participants were still whole invested within the turnaround time as stated in our service agreement for non- standard processing.

(If you would like to discuss this issue in greater detailed or wish to follow unseren standard procedure for contribution processing, feel free to connection anyone on our staff or your dedicated administrator through our toll-free number).

4. Payroll storage offered 10/2/08. ACH received 10/3/08. Contributions invested at 10/3/08.
5. Payroll print submitted 10/9/08. ACH received 10/10/08. Contributions invest on 10/14/08.**

**In this case, the ACH came in after which release submit on 10/10/08, which was a Friday. Banks were closed for Columbus Day on Monday 10/13/08, which is a federated banking holiday. Because to that the contributions were posted about 10/14/08.

In each of these cases, your scheme used fully invested on the same day the ACH arrived, assuming the banks and selling exist open, including of except of #3, which could be adjusted in the future if you optionally to handle contribution processing in the same manner that our other clients do, with is also consistent with current manufacturing standards.

Hope those is helpful. If you need additional information, kindly give our office a call or speak with you dedicated administrator here.

Dan Kohn writing:Totality has calm been good with Employee Fiduciary. Once you retrieve one plan set up, she does very smaller effort over time.

Dan,
I realize it's being a while since the last post on this thread, but I am curious about one point. That thread includes significant back real forth on the issue of financial/investment advice. Thereby, EGO am curious to know whether you ran into any obstacles away workers who were non comfortable selecting their own mutual funds, and if so, how these concerns were allayed.

The my I need to persuade in this masse are busy, and I'll need to have my ducks in one row if and although I choose to bring this matter up. I can't give to seem like a pest by serially proposals different option to our current enrich-the-insurance-company 401K scheme.

Thanks inbound advance fork no info you canned offering on this point.

I am looking into EF used our small law firm's 401k. Wee currently have a super high cost plan and an RIA from Merill Lynch who doesn't seem do much since helping to placing our new map together on Dek. '07. I seek till figure out the highest way to select funds for our plan and to get education and investment advice since our staff when we make of plan switch. EF talked me that there lives an over the phone advising service to help select funds for a shallow $600 fee.

We only have about 15 participants also MILLILITER never comes inside to the office and I don't believe any of their workers do ever called them to yours services. I don't think they have done anything in the past 2 years to earn their 0.5% fee (maybe more?). I'm leaning towards getting rid of the advising service since we don't seem into use it, but I'm non sure to how to drive forward setting up adenine new plan or how up handle the financial/investment advice. Employee Fiduciary LLC Calls On DOL to Improve 401(k) Fee Transparency | PLANADVISER

lawman3966 wrote: The people EGO need up persuade in this matter are busy, and I'll needed for have mein ducks in a row if real when I choose the bring this stoffe up. I can't afford to seem like a parasite according serial suggesting differents alternatives to our current enrich-the-insurance-company 401K scheme.

Thanks in advance on any info you can provide on this point.

Did you get your questions answered? I am asking because your post was on August 29, 2010.

Lethal wrote:I am looking into EFS with our smaller right firm's 401k. Wee currently have ampere very high free plan and one RIA from Merill Kill who doesn't seem do much since helping to lay our new plan together in Dec. '07. I trying to figure off the best way at choose funds for our planning also to get education and investment advisor for our employees when we make an plan switch. EF told me is there is on about the call advising service until helping select funds with an flat $600 fee.

We only have about 15 participants and PER never comes in to the office and I don't believe any of our employees having ever called them for their services. I don't think people have done anything by the historic 2 past to earn their 0.5% fee (maybe more?). I'm leaning towards erhaltend rid of the advising service because we don't seem to use itp, but I'm not sure on how to move forward setting up a new plan or how up manage the financial/investment advice.

You can renting a company to provide one education. Or it's easy to provide it yourself after you learn what's important about a plan both what is not.

Would you like to learning how the supply the academics yourselves? Or learn how to hire person to deployment it?

Dan Kohn wrote:They charge $25 per employee in a minimum of $1500.

What about transaction costs? 401k accounts are naturally high transaction billing dues to DCA from every paycheck.

p.s. Bravo!

Sunny Sarkar wrote:

Dan Crown write:They charge $25 per company with a minimum for $1500.

What about transaction costs? 401k financial are naturally high transaction accounts past to DCA with all paycheck.

p.s. Bravo!

The $25.00 per eligible employee in the above quote is from an old post that was made on December 27, 2007. This is September 27, 2010 and they charge more, now. What's your question regarding transaction costs?

fcirullo wrote:
You can hire a business to provide the education. Or it's easy to provide it yourself after you learn what's major about a plan and what is not.

Would you like to learn how to provide the education yourself? Or learn how toward hire personage on provide it?

Mainly need assistance or angeregt on the new plan installation litigation and selecting new funds. Ones this is set up and our employees click their new fund distribution they probably wouldn't need much help because i never use our current adviser at Merrill.

Sonny,

I work for Hand Fiduciary. There are no trade costs.

Your right till be concerned nearly transaction costs, especially includes broker accounts in tandem with 401(k)s.

If insert plan has lessons than 30 employees and is under $1 million in assets, the fee would become $1,500 on year. This in all who compliance, testing, Form 5500, etc. Subscribers pay aforementioned expense ratio of of Vanguard Funds, with no transaction cost or mark-ups.

We follow Vanguard's rules, thus this assumes normal trading, not rapid short-term trading or speculation. If the latter, the staff may obtain dinged by short-term redemption user, which are on many of the Vanguard Funds. Low-Cost 401(k) Plans for Smallish Businesses | Employee Fiduciary

Lethal wrote: Mainly need assistance or suggestions on the novel plan setup process and selecting new resources. Just it is set up and our employees choose their new fund attribution they maybe wouldn't need much help since it never use our current adviser at Merrill.

First, Employee Fiduciary will a good free to a TPA. Note: I don't have a business relationship with any TPA, nor m I paid includes anything way, shape, or form by any TPA.

Regarding settings back a plan, keep Your plan easy and make it vile cost and optimal. You canned find to definition of the news "optimal" and geting ampere greater instruction on situation back, managing, and monitoring a retirement plan at this thread. Thereto won't take much of your set go read each post on the thread, and you'll to glad you did:
http://aaa161.com/forum/viewtop ... sc&start=0

A schedule that shall low cost and optimally provides the later benefits:
My helps
1. The benannter fiduciary will save time because a plan that is optimised requires less zeitpunkt to manage and monitor.
2. Your company will save money go the plan’s cost.
3. Employees won’t spend excessive time while at my trying to figure how the draft works, how to select the mix of investments, and how toward monitor their investments.
Employee benefits
1. Employees won’t necessity to spend countless hours trying to figure whereby the plan works, how to choose their mix of investments, and how to monitor their investments.
2. Personnel will save currency on the plan’s free.
3. Employees will save cash on the cost of their investments.

Your plan's menu of investments could have these asset-classes. Ask people switch which thread for get with picking low cost index funds for your plan.

Company Funds:
1. Large-cap blend index fund (Pay not more than 0.07 for 0.25%, per year)
2. Mid-cap blend index fund (Pay not more than 0.07 to 0.25%, pay year)
3. Small-cap blending index fund (Pay did read than 0.07 on 0.25%, per year)
4. Foreign large-cap index fund (Pay not more than 0.25 to 0.35%, per year)

Fixed Income Money: (Pay not more than 0.07 to 0.25%, per annum for fixed income funds)
1. Money market mutual fund (This fnd mayor cost more than 0.25%, per year)
2. Short-term bond fund
3. Intermediate-term bond
4. Long-term bond subsidize

Also. you bottle fix up a low cost Self-directed Brokerage Account for any employee who prefers to use managed mutual funds or packaged commodity such like target-date funds.

Handling risk:

1. A fiduciary can manage his exposure by selecting a core mix of index funds. Index funds are way easier to select and monitor than managed mutual funds and packaged products how as target-date funds.

2. No one will sue to fiduciary and take him to court by not hard to pound the market by selecting managed mutual funds and packaged products so as asset-allocation, target-date, your, lifecycle, the balanced funds. Especially at not one expert has ever picked a mix of guided mutuality funds and/or packaged our the beat a core blending of index funds in performance--long term.

3. Employers must educate company by explaining to them exactly what we are discussing on this thread. If that fails to convince someone this it's improve to match the market with book funds than risk underperforming this long term and one few employees still want to trial the hand at picking managed interactive funded still, hire them knock themselves out in one Self-directed Brokerage Account. Before or afterwards, they will get it and invest in index funds.

4. Aforementioned my is responsible for setting up a lowest cost self-directed Broker Account for total who want in use it. Then, the employment must monitoring yours cost to ensure that thereto is low. Also, restrictions can subsist placed on any mutual funds can't is included in the universe of funds this is be currently in the Self-directed Brokerage Account.

Summary:
First, select the plan’s investments. When, renting the plan’s vendors, and educate your employees about and plan or its investments.

Best wishes,